F1 Grand Prix 2009

Out of all the scandels that have plagued F1, this one is the worst. I still can't quite believe what I am reading.

Can someone tell me how is kimi doing.. I adore him

Sure

Last three races have been very good for Kimi; there are many rumours that he will be leaving Ferrari, in fact, I'd say it's close to being a fact but he has raised his game, got his first win of the season in Belgium and has been driving well in general.

Quite simply, a super fast driver when he's motivated and he seems to be right now.

Addicted2Lazio wrote:

Can someone tell me how is kimi doing.. I adore him

Kimi has got the maximum out of the Ferrari in the last four races. He has picked up 30 points from a possible 40 and has been the best driver for the last four races. The rest of the season has has done frankly nothing. Always looks disinterested. He has picked up his game since the Massa getting that horrific injury now that the team are relying on him and I think he has got desire back. He is really giving Ferrari a headache now for next years lineup because he was supposed to be axed for Alonso but now Ferrari want three drivers. That shows you how well Kimi has done. Why does not he drive like that all the time? It was funny when he won in Belguim though. He was not even fazed. He just about managed a smile and that was it. The coolest and most unpassionate person I have ever seen!!!

Taib wrote:

Addicted2Lazio wrote:

Can someone tell me how is kimi doing.. I adore him

Kimi has got the maximum out of the Ferrari in the last four races. He has picked up 30 points from a possible 40 and has been the best driver for the last four races. The rest of the season has has done frankly nothing. Always looks disinterested. He has picked up his game since the Massa getting that horrific injury now that the team are relying on him and I think he has got desire back. He is really giving Ferrari a headache now for next years lineup because he was supposed to be axed for Alonso but now Ferrari want three drivers. That shows you how well Kimi has done. Why does not he drive like that all the time? It was funny when he won in Belguim though. He was not even fazed. He just about managed a smile and that was it. The coolest and most unpassionate person I have ever seen!!!

May also have something to do with Schumacher wanting to come back next year, Fisichella meriting a place and Valentino Rossi testing a Ferrari again.... They should have 5 cars...

Giolazio wrote:

Taib wrote:

Addicted2Lazio wrote:

Can someone tell me how is kimi doing.. I adore him

Kimi has got the maximum out of the Ferrari in the last four races. He has picked up 30 points from a possible 40 and has been the best driver for the last four races. The rest of the season has has done frankly nothing. Always looks disinterested. He has picked up his game since the Massa getting that horrific injury now that the team are relying on him and I think he has got desire back. He is really giving Ferrari a headache now for next years lineup because he was supposed to be axed for Alonso but now Ferrari want three drivers. That shows you how well Kimi has done. Why does not he drive like that all the time? It was funny when he won in Belguim though. He was not even fazed. He just about managed a smile and that was it. The coolest and most unpassionate person I have ever seen!!!

May also have something to do with Schumacher wanting to come back next year, Fisichella meriting a place and Valentino Rossi testing a Ferrari again.... They should have 5 cars...

I do not think Schumacher will come back. He had his chance and he will conitinue in his role developing road cars. Fisichella will probably be a test driver. Rossi was never going to happen. The biggest issue is that Raikkonen is the best payed driver ion Formula One by a massive margin. He is on €25 million a year and he still got a year on his contract. If Ferrari want to get Alonso on board they got to pay Raikkonen off and that will be extremely costly. Another thing is that on his day Raikkonen is up there with the best of them. He is sensational and with Massa getting that injury Ferrari have had some serious problems deciding which driver to get rid of for Alosno. In the end I think they have just thought to get them all on board.

Ferrari have aanounced the Fernando Alonso will replace Kimi Raikkonen for the 2010 season. He has signed a three year contract earning wages that probably double the best paid footballers. Felipe Massa will be Alonso's partner.

The worst kept secret in Formula One is no more. I am absolutely thrilled to have Alonso at Ferrari. He is the best driver in Formula One and the one that you can garuntee to wring everything out of the package available.

Taib wrote:

Ferrari have aanounced the Fernando Alonso will replace Kimi Raikkonen for the 2010 season. He has signed a three year contract earning wages that probably double the best paid footballers. Felipe Massa will be Alonso's partner.

The worst kept secret in Formula One is no more. I am absolutely thrilled to have Alonso at Ferrari. He is the best driver in Formula One and the one that you can garuntee to wring everything out of the package available.

Great news to see Alonso at Ferrari. Let the musical chairs begin in the rest of the paddock now.

It also basically means that Raikkonen is once again a McLaren driver. I wouldn't say Kubica to Renault is set in stone but I do believe it's on the agenda.

Rosberg to Brawn is likely too as is Hulkenberg to Williams. How he is not in F1 yet I will never know...

In terms of economics, I'm a bit bamboozled as to why some team has not taken a chance on Bruno Senna yet. I know he is in negotiations with someone but it doesn't look to be an established name.

This roller coaster will make the next season one hell of a F1 season.

Well this topic needs to be bumped since the first race of the new calender is upon us at the weekend. Can not really wait to be honest after feeding on scraps throughout winter testings(think of it like the summer transfer window in football). Really want to see the new Formula One cars racing. Here is what I think of the front runners. I broken them down into tiers:

Aiming for race wins:

Ferrari
Red Bull
McLaren

Could get wins if lucky but podium realistic:

Mercedes
Sauber

Points finishes:

Williams
Force India
Renault

Points finishes if lucky:

Toro Rosso

Finishing races the aim:

Virgin
Lotus
Hispainia

Any views on the season so far or this weekend's events?

Basically, aside from a few bad races, in my opinion, Vettel has been the man to beat all season long and only horrible luck and poor reliability has stopped him running away with this championship. It will hot up now with Ferrari hitting back and the Red Bulls looking to have the edge on McLaren

I actually don't know how Hamilton is leading; it raises questions about the points system.

Schumacher's comeback has been an epic fail, questions must now be asked of his dynasty, he has been made to look foolish. Although, that's to be expected when people underrate top drivers such as Rosberg.

As for the Ferrari team orders, it's not sad that it was activated but incredibly sad that, a year to the day of a serious brain injury, their guy in Felipe Massa is denied a momentous and wonderful victory. It's an absolute travesty for the sport; surely there was so much more to gain for all parties by letting Felipe win.

Small incidents like these are as damaging for F1 as the various spy scandals.

A fully agree with you about Massa's problem. He showed during the free practice that he can win the race and when it started everyone saw that this is his chance to get back in business but his stupid boss ordered him to let through that idiot Alonso. If he's faster and stronger than him why couldn't he go past him ? I'm really pissed of by this race and I seriously think to stop watching F1 and continue only to watch MotoGP. All those new rules just ruined this sport and made it quite dull.

Caxi wrote:

Any views on the season so far or this weekend's events?

Basically, aside from a few bad races, in my opinion, Vettel has been the man to beat all season long and only horrible luck and poor reliability has stopped him running away with this championship. It will hot up now with Ferrari hitting back and the Red Bulls looking to have the edge on McLaren

I actually don't know how Hamilton is leading; it raises questions about the points system.

Schumacher's comeback has been an epic fail, questions must now be asked of his dynasty, he has been made to look foolish. Although, that's to be expected when people underrate top drivers such as Rosberg.

As for the Ferrari team orders, it's not sad that it was activated but incredibly sad that, a year to the day of a serious brain injury, their guy in Felipe Massa is denied a momentous and wonderful victory. It's an absolute travesty for the sport; surely there was so much more to gain for all parties by letting Felipe win.

Small incidents like these are as damaging for F1 as the various spy scandals.

Let us think how long Ferrari were thinking about a year on after his serious injury that Felipe had chance to win...I think for about cumulatively about one second throughout the whole race. Sentiment has no place in Formula One. It is about results. Once the race starts it is all about maximising race potential. If it was me, I would have switched the Massa and Alonso during the pit stops because all race weekend long Alonso was clearly faster. There was much more to gain by having Alonso win:

I) Massa was slower then Alonso for most of the race. Massa was backing Alonso into Vettel. Alonso had the chance to overtake Massa but he did not want to risk too much since there could have been contact and screw both Ferraris over. Ferrari gave Felipe the chance to win the race when Alonso was saving fuel. Felipe opened a gap to 3 second to Alonso. Then Alonso got it back down to less then a second clearly showing he was faster but could not get close enough because of the turbulent air coming off Massa's car. Then Vettel was catching both Ferraris because Massa was backing Alonso up. The decision was taking to let Alonso through and the rest is history.

II) Alonso is the only Ferrari driver of winning the driver championship. Massa is near enough three victiories behind Hamilton. Ferrari must give preference to Alonso. It is not Alonso's fault that Massa is not only well off Hamilton but Alonso's. All season long barring Bahrain and Turkey, Alonso have been comfortably faster then Massa sometimes even up 8 tenths of a second. That is a massive gap considering they both drive the same car.

If people think that Ferrari was being unfair to Massa then they are throughly naive. Both drivers were told at the start of the season they would be treated equally until the point were one can not realistically win the championship whereby preference would be given to the other one. That is logical. We saw in Australia that Alonso went all the way to the back of the field, fought his was back up to Massa and Ferrari never let Alonso through. They were told to race even though Alonso was vastly quicker. In the race aftwerward second place driver Kubica admitted that he was glad that Alonso was not behind him. That cost Alonso but as the season has progressed it has been clear that Massa is a lot behind Alonso. Massive gaps. Even in Germany, Alonso qualified half a second clear of Massa. Massa is not in a position where he can realistically challenge for the title anymore where as Alonso is. Preference must be given to Alonso. That is not Alonso's fault. It is Massa'a for not doing a good enough job thus far.

Hamilton is leading because he has won two races, been on the podium more then any other driver and only failed to score points once. It raises nothing to the points system. Hamilton has been the most consistent driver.

Alonso has been the unluckiest not Vettel. In Australia he went to back off the field at the start when Button touched him. In Malaysia his gearbox was not working properly and incredibly he was still faster then Massa. Just goes to show how good Alonso is compared to Massa. Unfortunately, becasue of the gearbox being faulty it put too much strain on the engine and it blew up. In Monaco he ran over some grease in practice and crashed. He was loking a good bet for pole and probably victory. In Canada Alonso got messed up with traffic TWICE. If that never happened he would have won. In Valencia the safety car ruined his race when he was third. In Silverstone he got a ridiculas drive through penalty.

If Alonso has clean races he always ends up on the podium. He is the best driver out there. Now that the Ferrari is looking as comptetive relative to the Red Bull as it has ever been throughout the season, I expect Alonso to be winning races. Expect Alonso to be in the top three in Hungary.

martinese wrote:

A fully agree with you about Massa's problem. He showed during the free practice that he can win the race and when it started everyone saw that this is his chance to get back in business but his stupid boss ordered him to let through that idiot Alonso. If he's faster and stronger than him why couldn't he go past him ? I'm really pissed of by this race and I seriously think to stop watching F1 and continue only to watch MotoGP. All those new rules just ruined this sport and made it quite dull.

What a load of bullshit. Free practice one does not count since it was really wet and the track was changing all the time. In free practice two Alonso was the quickest out of them all while Massa spent his time spinning around like an amatuer. In free practice three Alonso was the quicker again then Massa. In qualifying Alonso topped the time sheets only until the end when Vettel beat by 2 thousands of a second. Massa was half a second behind Alonso.

Alonso could not by Massa in the race because of the turbulent air coming off the back of Massa's car. It causes the car to lose front end downforce and grains the tyres. Also he did not want to take any risks in case they touch because it is really really stupid if you crash into your team mate ala Red Bull in Turkey.

What happened in Turkey with Red Bull is what happens when team orders is not applied. However, it also demonstrates the flipside of the coin; if Alonso is good enough, he can pass Massa as Vettel did Webber before the Aussie inexplicably turned left (not sure why people continuously blame Vettel for that incident). Basically, I can understand team orders but it does hurt the sport. Vettel and Webber gained a lot of respect for racing wheel-to-wheel.

F1 had its glory days when teammates did that so, in terms of the story, it would have been mega to watch Massa hold off Alonso, knowing what was at stake on a personal level.

Taib wrote:

What a load of bullshit. Free practice one does not count since it was really wet and the track was changing all the time. In free practice two Alonso was the quickest out of them all while Massa spent his time spinning around like an amatuer. In free practice three Alonso was the quicker again then Massa. In qualifying Alonso topped the time sheets only until the end when Vettel beat by 2 thousands of a second. Massa was half a second behind Alonso.

Alonso could not by Massa in the race because of the turbulent air coming off the back of Massa's car. It causes the car to lose front end downforce and grains the tyres. Also he did not want to take any risks in case they touch because it is really really stupid if you crash into your team mate ala Red Bull in Turkey.

Where did you see me say that Massa is better than Alonso ? I just said that Massa deserved to take a win after all the problems he had through the past season. And I can also say that it's bullshit that Alonso didn't want to take a risk and try to overcome Massa because both the Ferrari's could have crashed. He's one of the most aggressive drivers I know and if he wanted the win so much he should have tried to overcome Massa. Those team orders suck and will ruin F1 as a sport. If FIA don't do something about this F1 will soon become as interesting as all the other races of this type (Formula BMW, Renault Series, GP3 and so on).

martinese wrote:

Taib wrote:

What a load of bullshit. Free practice one does not count since it was really wet and the track was changing all the time. In free practice two Alonso was the quickest out of them all while Massa spent his time spinning around like an amatuer. In free practice three Alonso was the quicker again then Massa. In qualifying Alonso topped the time sheets only until the end when Vettel beat by 2 thousands of a second. Massa was half a second behind Alonso.

Alonso could not by Massa in the race because of the turbulent air coming off the back of Massa's car. It causes the car to lose front end downforce and grains the tyres. Also he did not want to take any risks in case they touch because it is really really stupid if you crash into your team mate ala Red Bull in Turkey.

Where did you see me say that Massa is better than Alonso ? I just said that Massa deserved to take a win after all the problems he had through the past season. And I can also say that it's bullshit that Alonso didn't want to take a risk and try to overcome Massa because both the Ferrari's could have crashed. He's one of the most aggressive drivers I know and if he wanted the win so much he should have tried to overcome Massa. Those team orders suck and will ruin F1 as a sport. If FIA don't do something about this F1 will soon become as interesting as all the other races of this type (Formula BMW, Renault Series, GP3 and so on).

OMG. Seriously OMG.

I never wrote you said Massa is better then Alonso. You wrote:

martinese wrote:

A fully agree with you about Massa's problem. He showed during the free practice that he can win the race and when it started everyone saw that this is his chance to get back in business but his stupid boss ordered him to let through that idiot Alonso.

You said that Massa showed during free practice that he can win the race even though clearly that was not not the case which like I described is bullshit to the point where one of the commentators was asking Stefano Domenicali if there is a problem with Massa's car because he spent most of the time well behind Alonso and spinning all the time. One of the most annoying things on a messageboard is when some poster types something and then later backtracks claiming something else.

Erm, that is why Alonso said to the team a little after he tried to pass Massa "Guys, this is ridiculous" ie that there was a lot of risk involved. And in the press conference Alonso also mentioned that when he passed Massa that he was glad there would be not dangerous or risky menouvres. Why the hell would you want to risk taking out your team mate which is the dumbest thing to do in a race when they are in a one-two situation? Get real.

Team orders are a part of Formala One. Always have been, are now and always will be. Deal with it. Every season there is clear team orders.

Caxi wrote:

What happened in Turkey with Red Bull is what happens when team orders is not applied. However, it also demonstrates the flipside of the coin; if Alonso is good enough, he can pass Massa as Vettel did Webber before the Aussie inexplicably turned left (not sure why people continuously blame Vettel for that incident). Basically, I can understand team orders but it does hurt the sport. Vettel and Webber gained a lot of respect for racing wheel-to-wheel.

F1 had its glory days when teammates did that so, in terms of the story, it would have been mega to watch Massa hold off Alonso, knowing what was at stake on a personal level.

Wrong.

In Turkey Mark Webber was told to go into fuel saving mode while Sebastian Vettel was told to attack. That is like subtle team orders. Red Bull obvously did not have the testicular fortitude to tell Mark Webber to move over and so they tried to facilitate the move another way. The lap delta times prove this as well as the in board race engineer conversation. Vettel could not pass Webber under normal race circumstances. There in no chance in hell under normal race conditions that Vettel can get pass Webber because they have the same car and similar pace unless Webber makes a mistake. Like I already said the back of the cars give turbulent air which ruins front end downforce. The closer you get the worse it becomes. It is hard enough when you are only a little faster, against a team mate when you have the same car it is near impossible to pass.

It was clear as daylight it was Vettel's fault. Mark Webber gave him the space and Vettel took it and then Vettel turned right even though the apex was left. Vettel crashed into Mark Webber. That is why everyone thinks it was Vettel's fault. Caxi, you must have your blinkers on because that yet another instance which something is clear to everyone yet you say the opposite.

It would have been "mega" to watch Massa and Alonso and that could have been possible only if Massa was in the championship race. Which he is not. That is Massa's fault for not being good enough for half the season. Now his role is too help Alonso. It could have been reversed if Massa was leading and Alonso out of contention.

At 0:15, Webber clearly turns left.

This is further demonstrated by Vettel's on board. His left front and rear hog the white line and although moving in a straight line, he miraculously is punted off the road by someone, who apparently didn't turn left.

I didn't say that wheel-to-wheel racing occurred because of no team orders but rather that accidents between teammates is to be expected when someone up the ranks doesn't call the shots. Nobody can prove that Red Bull used subtle team orders but their lack of "Vettel is faster than you" lead to an avoidable collision. Well, that and whatever Webber was doing...

Caxi wrote:

At 0:15, Webber clearly turns left.

This is further demonstrated by Vettel's on board. His left front and rear hog the white line and although moving in a straight line, he miraculously is punted off the road by someone, who apparently didn't turn left.

I didn't say that wheel-to-wheel racing occurred because of no team orders but rather that accidents between teammates is to be expected when someone up the ranks doesn't call the shots. Nobody can prove that Red Bull used subtle team orders but their lack of "Vettel is faster than you" lead to an avoidable collision. Well, that and whatever Webber was doing...

Are seriously stupid or delibrately obtuse? At 0:13 seconds the collision happens not 0:15 seconds. Vettel turns right and hits Mark Webber at 0:13 seconds hence the huge plume of blue tyre smoke from the contact from Vettel's right rear tyre hitting Mark's left front tyre. Also if you look at Mark's steering wheel that the impact happens his wheel turn right because of the collison. Henceforth a second after the impact Mark turns left to stay on the track otherwise Mark would have gone off the track. Another thing consider, if Mark hit Sebastian then why did Sebastian career to the right? If Mark hit Sebastian, Sebastian would have gone to the left because like every person with a centrel nervous system knows that if you hit an object, the object moves off in the direction the force was applied. If you look at Sebastian when he is alongside Mark he is always moving to the right. Sebastian's spins clearly demonstrates that Sebastain was moving right. Sebastian moved right, probably in anticipation being past Mark so moving right to go to the racing line. Unfortunately he never cleared the whole of Mark's car and cut across Mark making him spin to the right. If Mark had gone into Sebastian he would have seriously damaged his car. In fact the opposite happened and Sebastian had to retire. If you still do not believe me then immediently afterward everybody who saw the incindent said that the incident said it was Vettel's fault because he moved across other then Hulmut Marko(head of Red Bull, and strongly favours Vettel, who suggested that Mark should have given Vettel room never mentioning Mark went into Vettel) and Christain Horner(team principal of Red Bull). Two days after the Grand Prix Red Bull announced on their website an apology of sorts acknowledging Vettel's part in the crash after a strong backlash. If you look at Vettel's starts such as in Germany and Britain he clearly moves across the track trying pin the opponant into the wall. In China Lewis Hamilton complained in the pit lane that Vettel tried to hit him. Clearly it is Vettel's racing style to move across and in Turkey Mark never relented. Too bad for Vettel.

Nobody can prove that Red Bull used subtle team orders but the evidence in hands points to that conclusion unless you want to bury your head in the sand. It was clear. Up until that point Vettel did not even make an attempt on Webber. Only when Webber was told to go into fuel saving mode(turn the engione down) and Sebeastian was told to attack Webber that Sebastian tried to go pass Mark.

In yesterdays race Sebastian did not even make one single attempt to pass Fernando Alonso(no suprises that he outqualified Massa, AGAIN) even though Sebastian was 8 tenths to second faster thebn Alonso. Was Alonso told to slow down? Nope. Could anyone envisage Sebastian passing Mark going at full pelt yestarday? Nope. Never in a million laps. Alonso was on the podium again and even managed to split the Red Bulls after Sebastians error. Mark looks good for the title have to say. Not the fastest but as long as Vettel keeps messing up I do not think he will care. Mark sighing when Sebastian was still complaining before the podium was priceless. Alonso looking good for the championship as well. The McLarens are well off the pace. They need to seiously pick it up and I do not think they can especially when Ferrari have a big upgrade package for Spa. Looks like a Red Bull and Ferrari fight to the end.