With head high A testa Alta. Paolo Arcivieri Book

Caxi wrote:

Conn wrote:

This thread is about Paolo Arcivieri, not lotito.

Really? Really Conn?

That would be why you mention Arcivieri 8 times while you mention Lotito c. 60 times. I think I fell for that one.

I actually do care enough about this topic; I care to the point where I don't like the idea of "freedom" being used to "persecute" another. Not going to claim I know enough about the situation to have a definitive opinion on it but I can see enough from your posts who you believe the culprit is.

I am sure one man and his phonecalls didn't do the whole of the damage so while it was an interesting read, I will continue to hate Lotito for what I know he has done wrong while you try and educate the forum.

Sometimes I wish you did take a break from this forum for a while.

Before posting this Topic i had a short speech with Conn.
He asked my opinion and i was very straight: Post it , because this story deserve all info, in a journalistic style without emotions , passion, commitment.
I believe that Conn did a good job and i waited for your opinions and comments.
As usual, and that make me feel sick, there is always some points or isolated commas that click people minds.

Please, once ion a while, try to avoid your personal feeling against this or another member just because you know his style and mind.
Try do dicuss , if possible, on the facts .

take care.

It's really very very sad that this topic is being ruined.

Namortsac, you can get the book in Rome. Should also be available on the web, but I am not sure right now.

Caxi, I would like to write a reply to your post but I can't make it. After reading from you <I don't like the idea of "freedom" being used to "persecute" another> in a topic about a man jailed for 7 months, I got speechless. Stai bene cosi, keep going.


I've not translated this book to attack lotito. There is no need for that, the material already available is more than enough.
I simply wanted you, Laziali from abroad, to know what happened, because this is the wish Paolo Arcivieri. This is why he wrote the book. He wrote it to say he is a Laziale, not a delinquent. And he faced this story with head high.

Surely nobody can argue with the contents of the story, the passions, emotions etc.

However, this is a Lazio forum. This story is related to our club through the divide between fans and presidents. It is relevant, it deserves to be posted but it is an inevitability that it will turn into a Lotito discussion since the facts are second hand, hidden, murky and Claudio just happens to be one of the main protagonists.

Thus, I find a massive irony in the fact that we have had interventions to stop arguing over this man and the only action this forum sees nowadays is posts directly correlated to him.

Not even the T&R section can function properly for the minority will constantly drag it down with idiotic remarks.

I would rather we all united as fans with like-minded interests, a shared love, a shared hatred without having one fellow here coming out with something that is so derogatory, it is foolish and another fellow there trying to defend an opinion with something that is simply laughable.

As a human being, I have the capacity to read, think, evaluate, formulate an opinion and express it. Let's not de-humanise this forum, everyone has the capacity to do as they please.

Months ago, this topic would have gained approval and praise. Take a look at who the first few responses refer to...then take a look at who is trying to say they actually care about Arcivieri and the others...then take a look at what they tried to say to others.

Then hang your heads in shame...

F**k me, we all care, that much should be obvious. We all like to hear Conn's translations, especially if we can't gather the info offhand. But please, let the people have their say.

Otherwise there is absolutely no point in being here. If you ever find an instance of me (and I say me because I am clearly being implied) personally attacking a member because of mind and style, please send me a PM. In the meantime, I fully expect my Inbox to be empty.

Now, with regards to the topic, I appreciate the education but I have nothing to say that hasn't been said already. I simply responded to a viewpoint I agree with. Forgive me.

Caxi wrote:

Months ago, this topic would have gained approval and praise. Take a look at who the first few responses refer to...then take a look at who is trying to say they actually care about Arcivieri and the others...then take a look at what they tried to say to others.

Then hang your heads in shame...

Caxi, ma vedi de anna' affanculo. Among all your ridiculous posts, this one ranks quite well.

I thought I was clear enough, but perhaps I should have made a draw for you:

1) Of course lotito is behind all this story. I've never said don't comment on lotito. My remark "this thread is about Arcivieri" means that this thread was meant FIRSTLY to express solidarity to him. Opinions on lotito are, as always, welcomed. Opinions as such "I don't care about this story", are seen (by me) as disrespectful (and I've asked to please avoid that), but of course you can write down whatever you want.

2) This is an old story. Only few phone calls were released recently. If I wanted to attack lotito I could have posted the phone calls, and many others, "months ago", when as you said "this topic would have gained approval". I waited for the book.

3) Again, if I wanted to attack lotito I would have made at least three different posts since I came back to rome. I would have talked about his comments "we also took Floccari because is a Catholic", "Muslim players create problems because of Ramadan". I would have talked about the way he kept away from Formello the journalist of the most important sport journal in Rome last week only because they wrote "give back to Laziali a Lazio to love". I would have added a comment after the post of Caput Mundi about an old corruption story lotito was involved before taking over Lazio. But I didn't.

But, the truth is that non me ne frega un cazzo. At this point, I do believe almost anyone knows lotito. Even those who got used to climb tremendous glass walls to justify anything coming from "The Saviour", as you surely know.

Caxi wrote:

Not even the T&R section can function properly for the minority will constantly drag it down with idiotic remarks.

let me guess... it's the "sparuta minoranza"?

Il Capitano wrote:

Giolazio wrote:

centrocampista wrote:

It makes me sick to my stomach.

I can not cheer for Lazio as long as he is the president - it´s just not possible.

Still support Lazio and hate Lotito...

Always will support Lazio and never cared about Lotitio, because I can't change it anyways. Same goes for the outcome of the case. That's why I didn't even read much of what Conn posted regarding the book. It's a shame we talk so much about everything else despite the performances of the players on the pitch since that's what matters most to me as a football fan.

How can you say u never cared about Lotito? Are u just ignoring the fact that he's screwing us over or what? Some "like" him, most hate him but i think ur the first to say u dont care...to me it is just like saying u dont care about the situation Lazio is in right now, but thats just me! And if u didnt bother to read to post, then i must ask u why even bother waisting ur time and energy writing such a post in this thread, completely disrespectful imo.

Thanks for sharing, Conn. Thats all I wanted to say.

Torsty wrote:

Thanks for sharing, Conn. Thats all I wanted to say.

Idem.

And I hope that justice does arrive.

Nesta_Jr wrote:

How can you say u never cared about Lotito? Are u just ignoring the fact that he's screwing us over or what? Some "like" him, most hate him but i think ur the first to say u dont care...to me it is just like saying u dont care about the situation Lazio is in right now, but thats just me! And if u didnt bother to read to post, then i must ask u why even bother waisting ur time and energy writing such a post in this thread, completely disrespectful imo.

Well, to be honest, I never care about Cragnotti or Longo or Lotito. I have an opinion about each one of them but I'm not a fan of club presidents, I'm a football fan and a Lazio fan. I like or dislike actions done by Lazio presidents from the past or present and will do so in the future. An of course I do care about the situation. I watch every game on tv, I watch tv shows, I read the web, listen to radio streamings and discuss here in the forum. I even freeze my ass off to see our team lose away games in the Champions League, I fly in for home games... So I guess that I do care. And since I do I also post in this thread. But the message was that Lotito isn't the topic here, it's Paolo Arcivieri.

If this thread is firstly meant to express solidarity with him, well, then I'm wrong here. He might have been treated in a wrong way, I and I think also we, can't judge that since we don't know all the facts. But I can't express solidarity for somebody who was, correct me, Conn, if I'm wrong, who was a major force of the Irriducibili in the late 90s and early parts of this decade.

Il Capitano wrote:

But I can't express solidarity for somebody who was, correct me, Conn, if I'm wrong, who was a major force of the Irriducibili in the late 90s and early parts of this decade.

And why not? Did he kill somedoby or something? He is a fellow Lazio supporter for Gods sake. The same as you and I.

I don’t understand why either.

Irriducibili have made several mistakes in the past, and they have been the first to acknowledge that. But they have paid. They have paid more than enough for their mistakes. Convictions, house arrests, stadium bans, years and years of Sunday afternoons spent at the police station to sign.

Yet, in the minds of many, it’s never enough. And not only that. In the minds of many, Irriducibili members are some kind of sub-human kind, with ad-hoc rules and laws. So, it happens that they are arrested and jailed for several months, without a process, with very weak (to say the least) evidence against them. And there are people that find it ok; people that love it; people that refuse their solidarity. Not many, gladly. But still a huge number in a society that is supposed to respect and protect their own civil rights.

It happens that lotito claims that Paolo Arcivieri is a delinquent, a delinquent involved in drugs; but then it happens that during the questioning, the same person admits to know almost nothing about Paolo Arcivieri.
It happens that people celebrate Paolo’s Arcivieri arrest on this forum; it happens that these people disappear after things turn bad for their hero, who had done a fine job.
It happens that people refuse their solidarity to him because he was an Irriducibili leader; it happens that such people know nothing about Paolo Arcivieri, about his battles for social rights. Battles that gave Paolo a huge visibility in the Rome’s political scene, so that he was chosen to run within the major Italian center-left party (and that was after his arrest… imagine how dangerous for the society Paolo must be).

Irriducibili have always played a remarkable role in Lazio, in the good and in the bad. But the hypocrites only remember the bad. I don’t understand why.

If you look at the Lazio jerseys’ numbers, you will see that NUMBER 12 is missing since the 2003/04 Season. It’s not just because of a sudden drop in the popularity of that number. S.S. Lazio retired the jersey NUMBER 12 as a way to express gratitude to the Curva Nord.
Less than a week ago, Curva Nord received another precious sign of affection by the Polisportiva Lazio, being affiliated to the Polisportiva. The plate was handed to Fabrizio Toffolo by the President of the Polisportiva Lazio himself.
Fabrizio Toffolo, another one of these dangerous Irriducibili. A man who organized a great Lazio evening to celebrate the 110th birthday, an event to which participated old Lazio glories, Lazio vip fans, many journalists and even Rome’s major, Gianni Alemanno. Imagine how bad and dangerous for the society Toffolo must be.

Why the plate? Why the retired jersey 12? We said that hypocrites only remember Irriducibili’s and Curva Nord mistakes.

Sometimes I wonder if those hypocrites celebrated for our second scudetto, for which a certainly decisive match was played on the street, in Via Allegri, after the Juve-Parma scandal. A sit-in that did cost the stadium ban to several Irriducibili.
Sometimes I wonder if those hypocrites celebrated after Lazio reached the deal with the Fiscal Agency. If they remember the massacre of Viale Europa, the sit-in that according to Berlusconi himself was crucial to reach this decision.

Sometimes I also wonder what would have those hypocrites done if behind Chinaglia there was not just a fake, but a serious and wealthy businessman man, as Irriducibili, Curva Nord, and countless Lazio fans did think.


It’s very easy to sit on the sofa and let other people risk their own ass and do the battle for you. Irriducibili and Curva Nord never complained about that, they just went down to the street any time it was needed, no matter what. I believe that the least thing a hypocrite could do is trying his best to acknowledge that.

Interesting information Conn. Everyone should read as much as possible and make their decisions.

Hey Conn, I'm far from celebrating his arrest. People should go to prison if they break the law. If he did, then he should have gone there. It's not my job to judge that, actually it is not our job to judge that since we just don't know what the lawyers know. Could be they were paid to make certain decisions, could (!) be. But there are some weird things surrounding regarding Paolo Arcivieri and the other IRR guys. That's why I just can't express solidarity to that guy, on the other hand I won't celebrate his arrest since that is not right as well and also respectless.

@Secret_Samadhi: And he is not just a fellow Lazio supporter. He probably commited crime, so I basically don't see him as another fellow Laziale like you are, or Conn, or Ermetico or many others.

Il Capitano wrote:

@Secret_Samadhi: And he is not just a fellow Lazio supporter. He probably commited crime, so I basically don't see him as another fellow Laziale like you are, or Conn, or Ermetico or many others.

So what your saying is that if you are a criminal you cant be a serious Lazio fan???Is that it?

If so,man your one judgemental prick.

William-85 wrote:

Il Capitano wrote:

@Secret_Samadhi: And he is not just a fellow Lazio supporter. He probably commited crime, so I basically don't see him as another fellow Laziale like you are, or Conn, or Ermetico or many others.

So what your saying is that if you are a criminal you cant be a serious Lazio fan???Is that it?

If so,man your one judgemental prick.

True that. Even if he commited the crime I don't give a fuk. He is a laziale, a brother, we share the same love so who am I to judge him faaaar away from Rome? Must of us have commited a crime, drinking alcohol underaged or buying cigarettes underaged or whatever. I'm so dissapointed that some people thinks in the way Il Capitano thinks. Everybody have the right to their own oppinion, yes, but, Goddamnit this is a fellow laziale we are talking about here.

Il Capitano wrote:

Hey Conn, I'm far from celebrating his arrest. People should go to prison if they break the law. If he did, then he should have gone there. It's not my job to judge that, actually it is not our job to judge that since we just don't know what the lawyers know. Could be they were paid to make certain decisions, could (!) be. But there are some weird things surrounding regarding Paolo Arcivieri and the other IRR guys. That's why I just can't express solidarity to that guy, on the other hand I won't celebrate his arrest since that is not right as well and also respectless.

@Secret_Samadhi: And he is not just a fellow Lazio supporter. He probably commited crime, so I basically don't see him as another fellow Laziale like you are, or Conn, or Ermetico or many others.

True, people should go to prison if they break the law.
Did Paolo break the law? We don't know that yet and we can't judge. However, we can analyze the facts and think.

And what we know so far is:

1) Paolo Arcivieri is still innocent, because the process is still ongoing
2) Paolo Arcivieri spent 7 months in jail and 19 months at the house arrests without a process and based on very weak evidence
3) That very weak evidence is collapsing during the process
4) Paolo Arcivieri has been depicted to the society as a monster, a terrible criminal, for 3 years, while the process has so far shown that these were lies.
5) Paolo Arcivieri has lost 26 months of his life, and the incarceration certainly will affect his life forever.
6) Before Paolo, nobody in Italy has ever spent 26 months of "preventive detention" for the crime he was accused.
7) Paolo Arcivieri has spent more time in prison than many convicted killers.

On the basis of these facts, I give my full solidarity to Paolo. And to give my solidarity to him I don't even need to know he is a Lazio fan, I don't even need to know he supported Chinaglia for the sake of Lazio. He's a person, firstly.


Apart from the facts, there is my belief and my hope: I hope that justice will arrive for Paolo and the others.

And finally, Il Capitano, please do consider me as a fellow Laziale very close to Paolo Arcivieri. I always shared Paolo's Lazio battles and I will keep doing that in the future

________________________

What follows is today's presentation of Paolo's book:

Secret_Samadhi wrote:

Must of us have commited a crime, drinking alcohol underaged or buying cigarettes underaged or whatever.

Yeah you're a regular gangsta, O.G. shoplifter I bet you even cross the street on red light bad boy

He was probably kept in detention for such a long time for something more serious. I don't know.
Let the courts decide. It would be nice to hear Paolo's story as well. And if he is found innocent there are mechanisms as the European Court of Human Rights etc. to seek compensation for his detention. After all the justice is blind - that applies to football colors too.

Sile wrote:

He was probably kept in detention for such a long time for something more serious. I don't know.

Very serious indeed: probably he stood in the path of some people "interested in constructions".

Sile wrote:

And if he is found innocent there are mechanisms as the European Court of Human Rights etc. to seek compensation for his detention. After all the justice is blind - that applies to football colors too.

It's too easy like that. Firstly, a compensation will never give you back your life and clean all the sh*t that they threw at you. Secondly, Paolo Arcivieri's case is not about a "blind justice". It's about a "justice" that did see very well the path to be taken. As I've written there is a second parallel process, where Paolo is the victim, and that will have to find eventual responsibilities of the people "indicating the path".


Go to the book presentation and listen to the various people who took the word... starting from the last intervention, Paolo's. Some things that were said during that presentation just give you goosebumps.

If he is innocent then his name will be cleared. The 2 years of his life can never be brought back but he is still in his prime, with friends and family who support him.

I listened to Paolo's words just now (couldn't understand everything, but I think I got the gist of it). Interesting that he referenced Gandhi.
That's all I have to say on the topic for now.

Sile wrote:

Secret_Samadhi wrote:

Must of us have commited a crime, drinking alcohol underaged or buying cigarettes underaged or whatever.

Yeah you're a regular gangsta, O.G. shoplifter I bet you even cross the street on red light bad boy :vcool

Yeah, whatever.

I believe there's very little chance that we will get to know all the facts and details from this case, but for me that's not the issue here. What I do believe, is that a man should not be taken away his freedom without trial. Whether he's innocent or not, who knows, but that's not what this is about. I think we'd all agree if I say that a man is innocent until proven guilty, that seems to be fair. To think that you are taken away from your family, your friends, your life, for several months (in prison!), for charges that are yet to be proven, is simply unacceptable. I don't think that everyone on this forum has a good knowledge, nevermind insight, of the 'ultras culture', but seen the 'Italian democracy' (yes, inbetween brackets for a reason), I think it's important to make you all understand the value of these people in the Italian football (without brackets). I'm not saying they are angels, but they are the true, real value in this 'modern football'. When I go to see a match of Lazio, or when I have to watch it online due to work, I probably watch those fans and ultras as much as I watch the actual match. Let's have a look at the current 'Lazio', at what it actually is, mind you it's saddening. To be honest, I see an eagle in a cage - as this amazing cartoon showed in some other topic -, with a completely incompetent man running one of the most beautiful clubs in the world. The fans/ultras are the one and only thing who, nowadays, make me proud to be Laziale. They are the real Lazio, they stand for what this club should stand for, and that is passion, ideals, honour.

I prefer not to take a side in this story, I prefer not to judge, but I do want to give my support to these men, taken away from society without any chance to defend theirselves, and the people they love - who are equally victim here.

Ultras liberi.

Lucky Strike wrote:

I believe there's very little chance that we will get to know all the facts and details from this case, but for me that's not the issue here. What I do believe, is that a man should not be taken away his freedom without trial. Whether he's innocent or not, who knows, but that's not what this is about. I think we'd all agree if I say that a man is innocent until proven guilty, that seems to be fair. To think that you are taken away from your family, your friends, your life, for several months (in prison!), for charges that are yet to be proven, is simply unacceptable. I don't think that everyone on this forum has a good knowledge, nevermind insight, of the 'ultras culture', but seen the 'Italian democracy' (yes, inbetween brackets for a reason), I think it's important to make you all understand the value of these people in the Italian football (without brackets). I'm not saying they are angels, but they are the true, real value in this 'modern football'. When I go to see a match of Lazio, or when I have to watch it online due to work, I probably watch those fans and ultras as much as I watch the actual match. Let's have a look at the current 'Lazio', at what it actually is, mind you it's saddening. To be honest, I see an eagle in a cage - as this amazing cartoon showed in some other topic -, with a completely incompetent man running one of the most beautiful clubs in the world. The fans/ultras are the one and only thing who, nowadays, make me proud to be Laziale. They are the real Lazio, they stand for what this club should stand for, and that is passion, ideals, honour.

I prefer not to take a side in this story, I prefer not to judge, but I do want to give my support to these men, taken away from society without any chance to defend theirselves, and the people they love - who are equally victim here.

Ultras liberi.

Mate, your posts are always fantastic. Respect.

lucky strike-you should write more.

William-85 wrote:

Il Capitano wrote:

@Secret_Samadhi: And he is not just a fellow Lazio supporter. He probably commited crime, so I basically don't see him as another fellow Laziale like you are, or Conn, or Ermetico or many others.

So what your saying is that if you are a criminal you cant be a serious Lazio fan???Is that it?

If so,man your one judgemental prick.

Sorry, I missed to add the fact that he might have commited crime in connection with Lazio. That's what don't see him as a fellow Lazio supporter like you and me. If somebody commits a crime without any connection with Lazio I'm fine with him as a Laziale, which doesn't mean I like his criminal actings. I hope I made my point.

@Lucky Strike: It should be innocent people liberi, not ultras. Still don't get why they should be considered special rights and it seems so with such plain statements like ultras liberi.