With head high A testa Alta. Paolo Arcivieri Book

Il Capitano wrote:

William-85 wrote:

Il Capitano wrote:

@Secret_Samadhi: And he is not just a fellow Lazio supporter. He probably commited crime, so I basically don't see him as another fellow Laziale like you are, or Conn, or Ermetico or many others.

So what your saying is that if you are a criminal you cant be a serious Lazio fan???Is that it?

If so,man your one judgemental prick.

Sorry, I missed to add the fact that he might have commited crime in connection with Lazio. That's what don't see him as a fellow Lazio supporter like you and me. If somebody commits a crime without any connection with Lazio I'm fine with him as a Laziale, which doesn't mean I like his criminal actings. I hope I made my point.

@Lucky Strike: It should be innocent people liberi, not ultras. Still don't get why they should be considered special rights and it seems so with such plain statements like ultras liberi.

Well these guys were/are ultras. It is not something you are on Sunday only, it's a way of life. Therefore, 'ultras liberi'. Of course I get your point when you say 'innocent people liberi', but in this context of Italian football, with them being ultras and of great importance (I and many others believe) to a football club like Lazio, and with ultras being targetted badly by the state/police, I say 'ultras liberi'. You don't seem to understand that it is because they are ultras, that they are targetted and taken away their freedom so easily. If they had been politicians, police officers, they'd be given another treatment. Democracy? Didn't think so.

@Il Capitano - You've made your point alright.If found guilty you would consider yourself above Paolo as a Laziale..Man you really are a prick.

We are all equal,criminal or not.Ultras liberi!!!

Quote :

Man you really are a prick

be calm, man.

Lucky Strike wrote:

I say 'ultras liberi'. You don't seem to understand that it is because they are ultras, that they are targetted and taken away their freedom so easily. If they had been politicians, police officers, they'd be given another treatment. Democracy? Didn't think so.

Lucky Strike wrote:

I say 'ultras liberi'. You don't seem to understand that it is because they are ultras, that they are targetted and taken away their freedom so easily. If they had been politicians, police officers, they'd be given another treatment. Democracy? Didn't think so.

I will try not to twist your words but I would just like to say something. With the statement "ultras liberi", "acab" and such an atmosphere is created in which fans are persecuted by the government and the police for no other reason than that there is something about the fans that the police and state does not like. This is simply not true.
And by blindly chanting "ultras liberi" fans are abolishing the people in question of any guilt preemptively. These generalizations are terribly dangerous and lead to a poisonous situation in the society.

Are some cops bastards? Yes some, but the vast majority of them are honest people with families to feed and a lot of them are fans privately as well.

Are ultras demonized by the media? Yes, most ultras are honest and passionate people with families and friends and a respectable role in society.

But there are those cops who abuse their power, and there are those ultras who instigate fights, overturn and burn cars and dumpsters, break shop windows and demolish cafe bars when a game goes bad.
There are politicians and businessmen who abuse their influence to quiet down the ultras agenda and their voices because they see them as a threat to their interests.
There are those ultras who abuse their position and swerve into illegal activities using their position as a cover, a smokescreen for racketeering, drug trafficking, extortion and so on.

This thread is about Paolo Arcivieri. Once he proves his innocence no one can stop him to use the same evidence cleared his name to an effect of putting the people whose influence turned his life into hell.
And that's what needs to be done, taking each case individually instead of making generalizations. Stop chanting "ACAB" or "All politicians are crooks" and take matters into your own hands, turn the system against itself.

Justice for all. Gabbo vive!

Sile wrote:

I will try not to twist your words but I would just like to say something. With the statement "ultras liberi", "acab" and such an atmosphere is created in which fans are persecuted by the government and the police for no other reason than that there is something about the fans that the police and state does not like. This is simply not true.
And by blindly chanting "ultras liberi" fans are abolishing the people in question of any guilt preemptively. These generalizations are terribly dangerous and lead to a poisonous situation in the society.

Quote :

Are some cops bastards? Yes some, but the vast majority of them are honest people with families to feed and a lot of them are fans privately as well.

First of all I never used the ACAB statement and I never will, because, like you say, it just doesn't make any sense. With 'ultras liberi' however there is nothing wrong in my opinion. It is the shout of the last pure, passionate thing left in this modern football. It's a statement directed at the people in power, not to generalise and repress the ultras as they are doing since years, treating them like criminals and terrorists.

Quote :

Are ultras demonized by the media? Yes, most ultras are honest and passionate people with families and friends and a respectable role in society. But there are those cops who abuse their power, and there are those ultras who instigate fights, overturn and burn cars and dumpsters, break shop windows and demolish cafe bars when a game goes bad. There are politicians and businessmen who abuse their influence to quiet down the ultras agenda and their voices because they see them as a threat to their interests. There are those ultras who abuse their position and swerve into illegal activities using their position as a cover, a smokescreen for racketeering, drug trafficking, extortion and so on.

I myself said that I know that not all ultras are angels. But here's the thing. You say yourself that some cops and people in charge abuse their power, as there are ultras who do that. The only difference is that cops and politicians are protected by the government - despite having a duty to society - whereas ultras are targetted, repressed and taken away from society without any trial. When you look at the trial after Spaccarotella killed an innocent boy, how long it all took, and the actual 'sentence' (yes, inbetween brackets) he got, and compare that to the immediate imprisonment of these ultras (and many, many others across the country for that matter) without any trial whatsoever or any way in which they could defend themselves - is disgusting and unacceptable. That is my point.

Quote :

This thread is about Paolo Arcivieri. Once he proves his innocence no one can stop him to use the same evidence cleared his name to an effect of putting the people whose influence turned his life into hell.
And that's what needs to be done, taking each case individually instead of making generalizations. Stop chanting "ACAB" or "All politicians are crooks" and take matters into your own hands, turn the system against itself.

As far as I know, a democracy works as following: every man has the right to defend himself, whether you are a police officer, a journalist, a politician or a football fan. Every man has the chance to try and prove his innocence in court. If proven guilty, he will suffer a sentence. Not the other way around. To give you another example. Spaccarotella, who murdered a young boy, got the chance to defend himself, he even - if I'm not mistaken - got another job so he could provide for his family in the meantime. You see the difference? You understand the problem?

Oh and just for the record. After months and months, and after a lot of lies, Spaccarotella got 6 years. Some ultras who fought with police the night of the killing in Rome, got up to 19 years of prison.

Quote :

Justice for all. Gabbo vive!

Equal justice for all. Gabbo vive!

Lucky Strike wrote:

Sile wrote:

I will try not to twist your words but I would just like to say something. With the statement "ultras liberi", "acab" and such an atmosphere is created in which fans are persecuted by the government and the police for no other reason than that there is something about the fans that the police and state does not like. This is simply not true.
And by blindly chanting "ultras liberi" fans are abolishing the people in question of any guilt preemptively. These generalizations are terribly dangerous and lead to a poisonous situation in the society.

Quote :

Are some cops bastards? Yes some, but the vast majority of them are honest people with families to feed and a lot of them are fans privately as well.

First of all I never used the ACAB statement and I never will, because, like you say, it just doesn't make any sense. With 'ultras liberi' however there is nothing wrong in my opinion. It is the shout of the last pure, passionate thing left in this modern football. It's a statement directed at the people in power, not to generalise and repress the ultras as they are doing since years, treating them like criminals and terrorists.

Quote :

Are ultras demonized by the media? Yes, most ultras are honest and passionate people with families and friends and a respectable role in society. But there are those cops who abuse their power, and there are those ultras who instigate fights, overturn and burn cars and dumpsters, break shop windows and demolish cafe bars when a game goes bad. There are politicians and businessmen who abuse their influence to quiet down the ultras agenda and their voices because they see them as a threat to their interests. There are those ultras who abuse their position and swerve into illegal activities using their position as a cover, a smokescreen for racketeering, drug trafficking, extortion and so on.

I myself said that I know that not all ultras are angels. But here's the thing. You say yourself that some cops and people in charge abuse their power, as there are ultras who do that. The only difference is that cops and politicians are protected by the government - despite having a duty to society - whereas ultras are targetted, repressed and taken away from society without any trial. When you look at the trial after Spaccarotella killed an innocent boy, how long it all took, and the actual 'sentence' (yes, inbetween brackets) he got, and compare that to the immediate imprisonment of these ultras (and many, many others across the country for that matter) without any trial whatsoever or any way in which they could defend themselves - is disgusting and unacceptable. That is my point.

Quote :

This thread is about Paolo Arcivieri. Once he proves his innocence no one can stop him to use the same evidence cleared his name to an effect of putting the people whose influence turned his life into hell.
And that's what needs to be done, taking each case individually instead of making generalizations. Stop chanting "ACAB" or "All politicians are crooks" and take matters into your own hands, turn the system against itself.

As far as I know, a democracy works as following: every man has the right to defend himself, whether you are a police officer, a journalist, a politician or a football fan. Every man has the chance to try and prove his innocence in court. If proven guilty, he will suffer a sentence. Not the other way around. To give you another example. Spaccarotella, who murdered a young boy, got the chance to defend himself, he even - if I'm not mistaken - got another job so he could provide for his family in the meantime. You see the difference? You understand the problem?

Oh and just for the record. After months and months, and after a lot of lies, Spaccarotella got 6 years. Some ultras who fought with police the night of the killing in Rome, got up to 19 years of prison.

Quote :

Justice for all. Gabbo vive!

Equal justice for all. Gabbo vive!

!!!

We are on the same page Lucky Strike. You just summed it up better, or should I say perfectly with Equal justice for all. That was my point all along but you're the more eloquent.

Sile wrote:

I will try not to twist your words but I would just like to say something. With the statement "ultras liberi", "acab" and such an atmosphere is created in which fans are persecuted by the government and the police for no other reason than that there is something about the fans that the police and state does not like. This is simply not true.
And by blindly chanting "ultras liberi" fans are abolishing the people in question of any guilt preemptively. These generalizations are terribly dangerous and lead to a poisonous situation in the society.

Unfortunately, for Italian Ultras things are much worse than that. The four Irriducibili’s story, this story, is just the extreme case, one of the incredible outcomes of the process that is destroying Ultras in Italy.

Since 1994 a massive campaign against Ultras was started and brought forward on a political, communication, juridical levels. The Ultras became the worst enemy of the society.
To contrast the "new terrible enemy of the society", several extra-parliamentary measures (law decrees, Pisanu decrees) were introduced in the last 15 years. Today, Ultras are considered criminals a priori, no matter what. Specific crimes were defined for the fans, with prevention measures directly applicable by the police without even the need of a denounce. Today, Ultras fans have to face prevention measures harder than those applying to people involved in mafia and terrorism!

The “English model” was cited over and over again in the last years, but at the end something else was applied. In Italy the police has a massive power, while, sadly, there is no control on the respect of civil rights.

Libertà per gli Ultras.

Il Capitano wrote:

Sorry, I missed to add the fact that he might have commited crime in connection with Lazio. That's what don't see him as a fellow Lazio supporter like you and me.

I don't want to change your mind, although I find your point completely absurd.

Let me tell a story. Let's assume that, tomorrow, an old Lazio glory, whom is trusted and loved by the fans, comes up at the fans and says that he's backing a very rich entrepreneur. He swears that this rich entrepreneur is willing to take over Lazio and invest a lot of money on the club. Unfortunately, the current Lazio chairman, who instead is not investing a penny on Lazio, does not want to sell the club. Does not even want to go to a meeting.

Let's assume that this old Lazio glory goes to the Curva Nord leaders and ask for support. What would you want them to do? Would you like them to do nothing and ignore him, or would you like them to arrange a massive protest against our chairman, pushing in order for our chairman to at least see this rich entrepreneur?

Because the very crime that you are citing, the one that prevents you from seeing Paolo and the others as fellow Lazio supporter, would not have existed if Paolo, Yuri, Fabrizio and Fabrizio had turned their back to Chinaglia, instead than following him.

Actually, Conn, I'm a person who prefers facts rather than assuming something which just won't happen. At times we are all blind and naiv and make mistakes, but to trust certain people is not always a smart idea. Anyways, I couldn't agree more with what Sile said. That's 100 percent my opinion as well. "Ultras liberi" is just not the solution for the problem and you should know that.

Lucky Strike wrote:

Oh and just for the record. After months and months, and after a lot of lies, Spaccarotella got 6 years. Some ultras who fought with police the night of the killing in Rome, got up to 19 years of prison.

Just read that and got a question for you, underlining that it doesn't mean that I think the sentences are correct: What kind of right do the ultras have to fight the police the night of the killing? Again, this is, not at all, a defense of Spaccarotella! Don't get me wrong. Since we all know the ultras had no right to fight anybody I think here lays a big part of the problem. Football fans, especially ultras, also need to realize that they don't have special rights or are allowed to do things, which "normal" people are not allowed to do. Know what I mean?

And on top of all that has been said here recently, each case has to be treated individually with equal justice applied to all sides.

So, threads like these are dangerous. Here we have a situation which many of us have a strong opinion on. This thread enforces a particular opinion but none of us are embroiled judicially in such cases so our viewpoints are immaterial. Therefore, I can't help but feel that my personal thoughts should remain off forum. After all, here we all are in a united and equal nest discussing matters of inequality. Why...

Il Capitano wrote:

Lucky Strike wrote:

Oh and just for the record. After months and months, and after a lot of lies, Spaccarotella got 6 years. Some ultras who fought with police the night of the killing in Rome, got up to 19 years of prison.

Just read that and got a question for you, underlining that it doesn't mean that I think the sentences are correct: What kind of right do the ultras have to fight the police the night of the killing? Again, this is, not at all, a defense of Spaccarotella! Don't get me wrong. Since we all know the ultras had no right to fight anybody I think here lays a big part of the problem. Football fans, especially ultras, also need to realize that they don't have special rights or are allowed to do things, which "normal" people are not allowed to do. Know what I mean?

Ok, here are some facts. A police officer murders without any real reason a young, innocent boy. He lies about it to everyone, several eye witnesses contradict what he's saying, it doesn't matter, he gets 6 years of prison. He cries of hapiness, the lawyer takes an appeal, Spaccarotella will be free for at least another year. The night of the murder, some ultras attack police in Rome, they are arrested and will be treated in court, mind you, as terrorists. They get up to 10 years (the 19 was wrong, apologies) of prison.

I see your point, I really do, of course these ultras have no 'special rights' to fight the police. But do the police have the right to treat all ultras as criminals, as terrorists? Give them no chance to defend theirselves, just because they are ultras? Take away their freedom, their life, just because they are ultras? That is the issue here, and nothing else.

Caxi wrote:

And on top of all that has been said here recently, each case has to be treated individually with equal justice applied to all sides.

It's about giving everyone an equal chance to defend theirselves and the people around them, whether you're a police officer or a football fan. Clearly, in Italy, that is not the case.

Caxi wrote:

So, threads like these are dangerous. Here we have a situation which many of us have a strong opinion on. This thread enforces a particular opinion but none of us are embroiled judicially in such cases so our viewpoints are immaterial. Therefore, I can't help but feel that my personal thoughts should remain off forum. After all, here we all are in a united and equal nest discussing matters of inequality. Why...

A "dangerous thread" that "enforces a particular opinion".


This thread does not mean to enforce any opinion. This thread is about facts. The opinion you take from them is your own. You were free to say that in this “dangerous” thread the concept of freedom is being used to persecute lotito, Il Capitano was free to say that Irriducibili do not deserve solidarity. I was free to give them mine. We were free to discuss them.

This thread sums up the judicial story of four Lazio fans. This thread also contextualizes this story within the situation involving Ultras in Italy and the repression towards them. And we talk about a repression we have been observing, not dreaming.

The motto “Ultras liberi” does not mean that Ultras should be free to do whatever they want. Libertà per gli Ultras means fighting against a generalized repression towards all Ultras fans, carried out in Italy extra-parliamentary and unconstitutionally. Nobody here has claimed that Ultras should be given special rights. We simply ask not to take people freedom away just because they are Ultras. We ask for justice.

Lucky Strike wrote:

Ok, here are some facts. A police officer murders without any real reason a young, innocent boy. He lies about it to everyone, several eye witnesses contradict what he's saying, it doesn't matter, he gets 6 years of prison. He cries of hapiness, the lawyer takes an appeal, Spaccarotella will be free for at least another year. The night of the murder, some ultras attack police in Rome, they are arrested and will be treated in court, mind you, as terrorists. They get up to 10 years (the 19 was wrong, apologies) of prison.

I see your point, I really do, of course these ultras have no 'special rights' to fight the police. But do the police have the right to treat all ultras as criminals, as terrorists? Give them no chance to defend theirselves, just because they are ultras? Take away their freedom, their life, just because they are ultras? That is the issue here, and nothing else.

For sure the police doesn't have that "special right" as the ultras don't have one as well. Both parties need to learn a lot, but we all know that we shouldn't excuse own mistakes with those of the others.

Conn wrote:

The motto “Ultras liberi” does not mean that Ultras should be free to do whatever they want. Libertà per gli Ultras means fighting against a generalized repression towards all Ultras fans, carried out in Italy extra-parliamentary and unconstitutionally. Nobody here has claimed that Ultras should be given special rights. We simply ask not to take people freedom away just because they are Ultras. We ask for justice.

Actually I think many people just don't know that, also because the pure motto "Ultras liberi" is easily missunderstandable and unfortunately, the majority of the people is quite ignorant.

I push up this topic just to inform the author , Conn, that tonight at 10.30 pm i was in a Tv show where paolo had a debate and interview regarding the book.
I had the choice to talk to him , to argument regarding the whole situation and Curva decision and the book.
Paolo takes the opportunity to thanks you for your effort and clear description of the story.

Grazie

Grazie a te, Paolo.

For sure I'll keep following and update this story... until the truth comes up and justice is done.

Time for updates... since the truth keeps coming out.

Yesterday, during the questioning of lotito's maidservant, one of the issues was "clarified".

It was proved that the famous anonymous letter containing threatens to lotito, the letter brought by lotito to the police in order to support his accusations against Irriducibili, that letter belongs to lotito's wife and lotito's maidservant.

Justice. The pig shall pay.

Conn wrote:

Time for updates... since the truth keeps coming out.

Yesterday, during the questioning of lotito's maidservant, one of the issues was "clarified".

It was proved that the famous anonymous letter containing threatens to lotito, the letter brought by lotito to the police in order to support his accusations against Irriducibili, that letter belongs to lotito's wife and lotito's maidservant.

Justice. The pig shall pay.

here in Bulgaria the pigs pay on Christmas :) jk. hope he gets out honestly